The interview is over. Now that he has answered all my questions, Thomas Frank has a question for me.
‘Are you competitive?’ he says. I hesitate, so he smiles, a little thinly for my liking. ‘Because we are competitive,’ he says.
We have arranged a game of padel on the court they have had built at the Brentford training ground. Me and my mate, John, against Frank and his highly rated assistant first-team coach Kevin O’Connor, who is a youthful 43 and has the small matter of more than 500 appearances for the Bees in his locker.
I blather on a bit, then I say I’m competitive but also realistic. I point out I’m a few stone the wrong side of svelte. John’s even older than me and he needs a new knee. He can move but he can’t turn. I can’t play at the net, either, because my eyesight isn’t good enough to pick the ball up quickly.
We’re always being told Frank is the best bloke in top-flight football, overflowing with emotional intelligence, amiable, easy going. O’Connor is as good a guy as you could wish to meet as well. I figure that’s more than enough excuses to make them go easy.
Frank and O’Connor race through the first set 6-0. They’re both in great shape. They’re both fine players. Frank never, ever misses an overhead. And he’s smart as well as good.
Me and my mate, John, against Thomas Frank and his highly rated assistant coach Kevin O’Connor, who is a youthful 43 and has more than 500 appearances for the Bees in his locker
We have arranged a game of padel on the court they have had built at the Brentford training ground
I play padel like a baseball player swinging for the fences. Frank plays like a pool player who likes to cover the pockets
I play padel like a baseball player swinging for the fences. He plays like a pool player who likes to cover the pockets.
Early in the second set, I fluke a couple of winners. John tells me afterwards he hears Frank say ‘OK’ in rather a portentous fashion, as if he was surprised there was still an ounce of spirit left to be crushed. There were no more winners, not from our side.
Actually, there was one but it didn’t really count. At 6-0, 5-0, O’Connor showed a flicker of mercy and dollied up a serve that we managed to dispatch. Frank shot him a disparaging look. No more mercy after that. What the hell happened to Nice Guy Thomas? A couple of minutes later, it was all over: 6-0, 6-0.
Our video guy had been worried there might not be enough time to do a quick Q&A with Frank on camera at the end of the match. The game was over so fast, he could have filmed a six-part documentary.
Still, it lasted just long enough for a glimpse. Just long enough to detect the edge that lurks beneath the surface of the boss who has masterminded yet another campaign at Brentford that marks him out as a manager of the season contender and one of the brightest talents in the English game.
Sure, he is a nice guy. We all know that. He’s probably the most balanced, normal, decent, approachable, eloquent, clever manager in the Premier League.
He treats people with respect. He is, as one of the summarisers on BBC Radio 5 Live said ahead of Brentford’s recent victory over Manchester United, a ‘lovely human being’.
‘I would like to think that I’m quite grounded,’ Frank, 51, says earlier. ‘I believe in myself but I have one favourite line to the players about their attitude: I want them to be confident but humble.’
Frank never, ever misses an overhead. And he’s smart as well as good
Frank is probably the most balanced, normal, decent, approachable, eloquent, clever manager in the Premier League
He treats people with respect. He is, as one of the summarisers on BBC Radio 5 Live said ahead of Brentford’s recent victory over Manchester United, a ‘lovely human being’
Our video guy was worried there might not be enough time to do a quick Q&A with Frank at the end of the match. It was over so fast, he could have filmed a six-part documentary
Even on Thursday, he had told his players that if they were still agog about the drama of the Champions League semi-finals, they should spare some time to watch the Championship play-off semi-final first leg between Bristol City and Sheffield United. The message: don’t forget where you came from.
But there is something more. There is much more. The nice guy stuff is right but it has also got to the point where it is a little patronising. Because nobody achieves what Frank is achieving just by being nice. The padel massacre was just a small indicator of that: there is a dark side to Thomas Frank.
I ask him about Liverpool’s title-winning celebrations after their victory over Tottenham and how refreshing it was to see Arne Slot take the microphone on the pitch and thank Jurgen Klopp for his part in the triumph. How many managers are secure enough in themselves to do that?
How many are so eaten up by paranoia and worry and pressure that they constantly feel the need to exaggerate their own part in success and edit everyone else out of the story?
‘First of all,’ Frank says, ‘it was a great thing that Slot did. The way I see the world, not necessarily the right way, I also think it was what he should have done. We stand on the shoulders of others and we build on foundations they have built for us. We need to acknowledge that every single time.
‘It’s all about the ego. So how fragile is it or how big is it? Some people need reassurance all the time and to say, “The reason I am so good is because of me and it has nothing to do with these top players and good staff and all that. It’s me, me, me, me”. So it depends who you are.
‘So you need to believe in your own skillset, but be humble enough to know there’s a lot of hard work and you’re not the only one. I’m confident in myself and what I’m capable of doing. Also humble enough to know that I can do nothing alone. No one can. It’s impossible.
‘I am who I am. You said that someone on the radio said I was a good human being and that’s the greatest praise you can get. For me, it’s much more important than being a great football coach.
We played just long enough to detect the edge that lurks beneath the surface of the boss who has masterminded yet another excellent campaign at Brentford
The nice guy stuff is right but it has also got to the point where it is a little patronising. Because nobody achieves what Frank is achieving just by being nice
‘You said that someone on the radio said I was a good human being and that’s the greatest praise you can get. For me, it’s much more important than being a great football coach’
‘What kind of legacy do you want to leave in your life? Be a great football coach or a great human being? I know what I will choose a thousand times out of a thousand’
‘What kind of legacy do you want to leave in your life? Be a great football coach or a great human being? I know what I will choose a thousand times out of a thousand.
‘But it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Being a great coach is about being clear, directing the messages, being consistent, taking tough decisions, managing the matches. I can’t see any reason why I can’t do that.
‘And I would say that the way the world is changing, and football is changing, it’s less and less of macho management by fear now. No one wants that. That doesn’t mean you can’t be demanding. That doesn’t mean you can’t hammer your hand on the desk and say, “Come on, it’s not good enough, you have to sprint back”.
‘I can say that directly but I don’t have to kill you. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago, that culture of management by fear was more prevalent and there was a time when I wondered if that might affect my chances of getting a job, because that is not my style. But I still managed to get a job at Brondby, maybe the biggest club in Denmark, and that went well.
‘Look, if you ask whether I’m tough, too, I think I’m extremely resilient. And we’ve all got a dark side. I’ve got five per cent dark side in me. Even my wife says that. You need that dark side. You need to have an edge and I have an edge.
‘I’m extremely competitive, very determined what I want to do, and you don’t survive in this business if you’re not tough.’
Toughness encompasses many things in Frank’s job at Brentford, who sit ninth in the Premier League ahead of Saturday’s game against relegated Ipswich at Portman Road. If Manchester City beat Crystal Palace in the FA Cup final, Brentford would still have a chance of qualifying for Europe for the first time in their history.
It encompasses the reality of being in charge of a selling club and coping with having to lose some of your best players season after season. So far, Frank and the brilliant network of analysts, statisticians and executives at Brentford have made an outstanding job of that.
If Manchester City beat Crystal Palace in the FA Cup final, Brentford would still have a chance of qualifying for Europe for the first time in their history
Brentford are one of only three clubs in the five leading European leagues to have three players in double digits for goals – Kevin Schade (left), Yoane Wissa (centre) and Bryan Mbeumo (right)
Brentford supported Ivan Toney through his ban, got him a big-money move – and have gotten even better since he left
Lose Neal Maupay and replace him with Ollie Watkins. Sell Watkins and replace him with Ivan Toney. Sell Toney and see Bryan Mbeumo, Yoane Wissa and Kevin Schade step up with such distinction.
Frank is justifiably proud of the fact that Brentford are one of only three clubs in the five leading European leagues to have three players in double digits for goals scored.
Brentford have Mbeumo (18 goals), Wissa (18) and Schade (10); Bayern Munich have Harry Kane (24), Jamal Musiala (12), Leroy Sane (11) and Michael Olise (10); and Barcelona have Robert Lewandowski (25), Raphinha (16) and Ferran Torres (10). It is good company to be keeping.
It encompasses dealing with the controversy that engulfed the club when Toney was charged with, found guilty of, and banned for betting offences with dignity and compassion and a hard dose of realism, refusing to allow it to sink the club.
And it includes negotiating with aplomb the fact that he and his staff have achieved so much success at Brentford in such an impressive manner that every time a vacancy for the manager’s job at Tottenham, Chelsea, Manchester United, Bayer Leverkusen or other leading clubs is mentioned, Frank’s name is always in the frame.
The toughness encompasses more personal things, too. The match against Ipswich marks the first anniversary of the death of Frank’s father, Preben. The day after he died, Frank managed Brentford in their game against Bournemouth. When Brentford scored a late winner, the players ran to Frank on the touchline and gathered round him in a show of support.
‘It was very emotional,’ Frank says, ‘and especially the first month or two after it were very emotional. One of the effects on me, I suppose, is that I take more care of my mum now because she is alone. Of course, my sister lives in Denmark and she does that as well.
‘My father’s not here any more and he was a big part of my life and there are still things I wish I could speak to him about. I wish he was still here but he was 78 years old. It’s a good age.
The day after his father died, Frank managed Brentford against Bournemouth – and after a late winner, the players ran to him on the touchline and gathered round him in a show of support
Every time a vacancy for the manager’s job at Tottenham, Chelsea, Manchester United, Bayer Leverkusen or other leading clubs is mentioned, Frank’s name is always in the frame
‘I’m extremely competitive, very determined what I want to do, and you don’t survive in this business if you’re not tough,’ says Frank
‘It’s not a 10 out of 10 but it was a good, long life. It happens to all of us at some point so I’m actually OK about it.
‘Did it make me think about my own mortality more? It’s more that you get those reminders when people my age, you know, friends, or friends of friends, are unfortunately having a problem that just comes out of nothing.
‘That’s tough, partly because I work so much, you know. I’m sometimes thinking, “What are you doing to yourself”, you know, “Why are you so driven? Why are you ambitious? What is it you want with your life?”
‘But that’s me.’
